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May 26, 2008 09:56 AM

Categories: General Robotics

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MrScott

  Moderator
Joined: 06/07/2007

For those who may not normally follow the NASA news, the Phoenix lander sucessfully landed on Mars last evening, and is sending back its initial pictures from the Red Planet.

It's equipped with a digging arm that it will use to reach out and sample various locations around the lander. The samples will be delivered for analysis to various experiements on the lander.

Here's an artist's rendition of what the lander looks like sitting on that polar plane.

The radio lag to Mars means that the hardware there must execute it's operations without real time human intervention. It's given its instructions, and left to carry them out. We don't get to find out how things turned out until a signal returns from Mars in about 10 minutes. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Discussion:    Add a Comment | Comments 1-25 of 34 | Latest Comment | 1 2 Next »

Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 10:01 AM

So I've heard, I was a little to late to watch the landing live, but I caught a repeat on NASA TV. I wonder if I was the only one watching the computer animations displayed during that landing, who wondered if they had also prepared one for the various things that could go wrong, and the inevitable conclusion (a nice big crash).

15 Hours on Mars and counting.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/

RoboGuide - Your guide to hacking all things WowWee

Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 26, 2008 12:43 PM

I watched it intently awaiting the same fate as the polar lander. There was some great animations online this one being my favorite
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/video/edl_hud_english_high.mov

It was an exciting 7 minutes thats for sure, watching them count down the altitude. Did you all see that white object with shiny top in background of one pic? In press conference NASA said they dont know what it is yet, could be anything, including a part that Phoenix released while landing, shell etc. But its clearly not part of the martian surface.

MrScott Avatar
  Moderator
May 26, 2008 1:09 PM

The thing I kept thinking was that all the drama was done and over with by the time the engineers got their data on their screens.

The radio delay is somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes, depending upon how far apart Earth and Mars are at any given time. The entire landing process was done and over with by the time NASA had confirmation that it had begun.

I listened in on the feed from shortly before the cruise module was jettisoned, until they had confirmation of good signal from the lander on the surface. I didn't watch too much of the feed, and so missed the animations.

As an amateur rocket builder, I'm familiar with descent rates and chute deployments in the 3km and lower range. Those Phoenix descent rates were spooky fast. They were rattling off the ranges as it came whistling in. As I compared that to what we like to see as our rockets come down to the last 200meters, the Lander seemed to be moving way too fast. I'd love to see a G-Force readout timeline for that descent profile.

It just so happens that my rocket club was holding a high power launch all day yesterday. My "big" flights were rockets less than 3 pounds to less than 2000 feet. Some of the club members doubled both of those figures, but not all with success. We left some new holes and collected some burnt wreckage on the field.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

robodud Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 3:45 PM

i saw that on tv last night i wonder wen they will have pepol on mars

robots are my life ever sence i was 3 years old!
if you are a robonoob e mail me at wowweerobotlover@hotmail.com

Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 7:46 PM

The martian atmosphere is a lot less dense than earths atmosphere, so there is a lot less to slow your descent. It may also have something to do with the parachutes opening 6.5 seconds later than they were supposed to. I'm betting your rockets don't happen to have a powered final landing stage to prevent cratering Mr Scott.

I saw the quy asking about the white object in the press conference, but the NASA guys seemed to have as much clue about what he was referring to as I did (ie very little). I think this is what he was referring to.

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Peter Redmer Avatar
  Administrator
May 26, 2008 7:57 PM

Thanks for posting this MrScott. I had a very busy weekend, and I had heard about this but was not able to read/see any of the coverage. I've always been fascinated by space travel and photography.

Does anyone know what data, specifically, the Phoenix will be collecting?

Peter Redmer
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Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 8:02 PM

Have a look at NASA website section dealing with the Pheonix, all the details, along with photos, video animations etc, are there.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/

RoboGuide - Your guide to hacking all things WowWee

Peter Redmer Avatar
  Administrator
May 26, 2008 8:12 PM

Thanks, Nocturnal. I just took a look, and the photos never cease to amaze me. I also liked the timer clock showing how much time Phoenix has spent on Mars, very cool.

What I need to do is spend more time learning about this area of science, maybe sometime soon I will be able to make the time. I wanted to read some books on the subject, checked them out from the library, and never gave myself a chance to open them :(

Peter Redmer
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Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 8:23 PM

Speaking of photo's of mars. I wish I had a poster of this

http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/991B_cape_verde.html

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Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 26, 2008 9:30 PM

Yeah Noct thats it and if you download the big version you can zoom in on it and see a reflective top, Im sure it is part of the Phoenix, a cover or whatever. Lets not all forget that Roboquad has the eyes of Spirit and its legs were designed by Tilden to be part of a real NASA mars exploring robot. Actually the discovery channel Roboquad box has a photo of mars as a backdrop for Roboquad.

Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 26, 2008 9:56 PM updated: May 26, 2008 9:57 PM

There is also this, from the images taken today. Unfortunately this is as hi-res as it gets for the moment.



Not sure if its the same thing from a different angle, or something else.

RoboGuide - Your guide to hacking all things WowWee

MrScott Avatar
  Moderator
May 27, 2008 7:54 AM

Robostuff said:  Lets not all forget that Roboquad has the eyes of Spirit and its legs were designed by Tilden to be part of a real NASA mars exploring robot.

Haven't heard those claims before. Do you have any references that document the connections?

I know that early in his career Dr. Tilden worked for NASA and JPL, but that was long before his involvment with HASBRO for the multilegged BIOBugs or WowWee's RoboQuad.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 27, 2008 9:23 AM

I know Tilden said that the leg design was based off one he did at NASA, I can probably locate the source interview if you want (I think it was the tektime interview).

As to the eyes of spirit... that seems a little unlikely.

RoboGuide - Your guide to hacking all things WowWee

MrScott Avatar
  Moderator
May 27, 2008 9:48 AM

I'd be interesting in seeing the interview transcript. The specific words are the key.  If the legs are "based on a design", that's not quite the same as saying the RoboQuad legs were designed to be part of a Mars lander.

It's sort of like saying an ESTES Outlander is "based on" the Phoenix design.

A better phrase might be "inspired by".

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 27, 2008 10:47 AM

Yeah I think thats a different object in that photo, but not sure. Ref Roboquad and mars rovers. Tilden says it in at least one interview and Computerworld mentions it on this page. I have seen it posted elsewhere too.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&artic...

Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 27, 2008 10:54 AM

Here is the exact quote
"Interestingly, Roboquad's legs were developed for a NASA Mars robot. The designer left NASA to found WowWee -- and used his expertise to create Roboquad."

MrScott Avatar
  Moderator
May 27, 2008 11:17 AM

The techtime podcast that Nocturnal's post led me to has Mark stating the roboquad was based on a design he did for a Mars Rover while working for NASA.

That's not quite the same as stating "the roboquad legs were designed for a Mars lander."

The design of the RoboQuad leg has a single rotational joint, moving the foot tip in a circular path that is tilted with respect to the ground. There's not enough degrees of freedom to navigate uneven terrain. I can only assume that Dr. Tilden's rover design had more sophisticated legs, able to adapt the Rover's gate to uneven terrain. NASA and JPL have several such walking prototypes, with multiple degrees of freedom for each leg, so that it can step onto, or over, obstacles.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Nocturnal Avatar
  Member
May 27, 2008 11:25 AM

Unfortunately, that line you quote contains at least one glaring error. Fact checking is obviously not high on computerworld.com's list of important steps.

"The designer left NASA to found WowWee"

Tilden did not found WowWee, WowWee initially hired him as a consultant while he was working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory, before he started working for them full time.

I should still have the tektime interview around here somewhere, I'll see if I can find the bit.

RoboGuide - Your guide to hacking all things WowWee

MrScott Avatar
  Moderator
May 27, 2008 11:31 AM updated: May 27, 2008 11:32 AM

Here's the podcast I listened to.
It's rather long. The one sentence RoboQuad reference is about 3/4 of the way through it.

http://www.tektime.com.au/podcast/index.php?id=203

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Whit+ Avatar
  Member
May 27, 2008 12:03 PM updated: May 27, 2008 3:52 PM

Nocturnal said: Speaking of photo's of mars. I wish I had a poster of this http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/991B_cape_verde.html

I went on field trip with my daughter. We got to see a whole exhibit of Mars 3D photos. You viewed the pictures with the red/blue glasses. The 3D was amazing. You could reach out and put you hand (if felt like) into the craters!

Wonder if this file could be downloaded and printed someplace like Kinko's on one of the poster or drawing plotters?

Whit+

"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney

rybuger1 Avatar
  Member
May 27, 2008 12:56 PM

robodud said: i saw that on tv last night i wonder wen they will have pepol on mars
How does 2025 sound? (Popular Science says so...)

Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 28, 2008 12:23 AM

Yes, they do lots of the stereo pics, in fact the Phoenix already has one up on the website!

Whit+ said:

Nocturnal said: Speaking of photo's of mars. I wish I had a poster of this http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/991B_cape_verde.html
I went on field trip with my daughter. We got to see a whole exhibit of Mars 3D photos. You viewed the pictures with the red/blue glasses. The 3D was amazing. You could reach out and put you hand (if felt like) into the craters!

Wonder if this file could be downloaded and printed someplace like Kinko's on one of the poster or drawing plotters?

milw Avatar
  Moderator
May 28, 2008 9:08 PM

You can get a pretty good poster sized printout for ~$50-150 (approx 3 ft x 4ft or so). They like to have 200 dpi input, the hi res of that Cape Verde is 18000 pixels wide so you could easily have photo quality output at 90 inches (7.5 feet wide?!). My favorite book is 'A Travellers Guide to Mars', covers a lot of the highlights and scientific background.

Rovio rules!
Wisconsin Iron :: Cellular Atomics

milw Avatar
  Moderator
May 28, 2008 9:15 PM updated: May 28, 2008 9:18 PM

This image from the Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter shows the heat shield and parachute not too distant from the lander itself. Don't know the relative orientation however, compared to the image above with the white object in the distance.

This one's pretty cool too- the MRO actually caught Phoenix floating down under the 'chute! (see inset lower left corner)

Rovio rules!
Wisconsin Iron :: Cellular Atomics

Robostuff Avatar
Member
May 29, 2008 11:15 AM

Very cool pics, good find! The Phoenix is in trouble, the arms tarp cover didnt completely come off, they are going to try and free it.

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