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March 20, 2008 03:31 PM

Categories: General Robotics

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MrScott

  Moderator
Joined: 06/07/2007

This thread is intended as a mental exercise in what it would take to make a robot that would clear snow from driveways and walkways.

It was spawned from a brief remark I made in another thread about wishing there was a robot to clean up the Spring snow.

Off we go....

The Problem Statement

Create a robot that can autonomously clear snow from a driveway or walkway.

It can be assumed to have a well defined area to keep clear.

It must be safe to leave unattended (while the owner sits inside and drinks cocoa).

The Guidelines

It is acceptable to modify or mark the area to be cleared so that the robot knows where it is.

It is acceptable for a remote unit to observe and control the robot. (i.e. the smarts don't have to be onboard)

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

Discussion:    Add a Comment | Comments 1-21 of 21 | Latest Comment

March 20, 2008 3:37 PM

I'll start off with some ponderings and what ifs.....

First off, the robot would need to know where it was on the driveway. It won't be able to do that by dead reckoning (counting wheel rotations).  It should be assumed that there will be wheel slippage involved.

This could be done "Roomba Style" by letting it wander around randomly cleaning, but use some sort of invisible wall to keep the robot from wandering out of the driveway.

This could be done by an elevated control unit looking down on the driveway, and tracking the location of the robot. This unit could send instructions to the robot about what path adjustments are needed.

This could also be done by "edge detection", with which the robot finds the edge of the cleared area, and lines itself up for another "bite" at the remaining pile of snow. The edge detection scheme might not work so well with light dustings versus 10 inches of snow. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 20, 2008 3:41 PM

How to move/remove the snow?

I'm not keen on automating a snow blower. There's a lot of potential for mayhem if the snow chute gets turned in the wrong direction, or picks up ice or gravel. 

It could be more like a Zamboni, in that it could shovel/sweep/suck up the snow, and deliver it to a hopper. When the hopper is full, the robot navigates to the edge of the area, and dumps the hopper load. It then navigates back to the edge of the cleared area and goes to work refilling the hopper.

It could be like a snow plow. With enough traction and torque, the snobot could just shove one blade width of snow to the side of the area.  This is pretty much how I use a push-shovel to clear anything less than a few inches of snow. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 20, 2008 3:49 PM

maybe the bot doesn't need to shovel or plow snow out of the way.  It has been a long time sinse i lived in snow, but in my first 19 years of my life I somehow recall that snow melts.

March 20, 2008 3:57 PM

Six months is too long to wait.

Places that have "real" snow have to clear the driveway potentially multiple times a day during a particular vigorous storm so that the driveway is passable. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 20, 2008 4:06 PM

Unless, perhaps, your reply was intended as a suggestion that the snow could be actively melted off of the area to be cleared by some device.

That's certainly one approach. There are properties that clear the snow by using heated pavement.

Not too practical in areas with lots of snow, or bitter cold, as the water just refreezes to a sheet of ice once the heater switches off.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 20, 2008 7:12 PM

I'm gonna have a think on this. Right now the only thing coming to mind is what my family did; Move to Southern California! Now it's not a problem like it was in Idaho. We see the snow on the mountains from a safe distance, visit when we want to, and leave it there for the mountain folk :)

I know, that wasn't the answer being looked for. I'll try to come up with something better. Something that doesn't include a flame thrower... (Safety First!)

*being amused at the thought of an autonomous, flame-throwing zamboni*

Perhaps the whole thing could be styled after/modified from one of those auto lawn mowers. Convert it to a track setup for better traction.

If it's location-aware, snow could be blown into a heated catch bag (so it doesn't freeze in the bag) then the resulting water dumped in a designated area (eg lawn, gutter, neighbor's yard) and allowed to freeze there. The extra weight of the bagged water could help with potential traction issues.

edit= Ooh! Three words: High powered lasers!

Watch out, don't step in the anthropomorphization.

March 20, 2008 9:16 PM

One design rattling around in my noggin would be sort of a double ended bulldozer. It would be tracked or wheeled, with a blade on each end that can be raised or lowered.

Why two blades, you ask? So it can drop a blade, plow left to right to the edge. Raise that blade, drop the other blade, and plow right to left.

That design would assume the snow was light enough so that it could just be pushed to the side. Heavier snow falls are less common, and that's when I break out the snowblower.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 21, 2008 12:07 AM

The robot himself works as a heater slash snow blower.

March 21, 2008 12:08 AM

hey scotty, was that picture taken in upstate NY?

March 21, 2008 8:50 AM

The drawback I see with melting is that it would take an enormous amount of energy from gasoline or electricity. I like the idea of putting the snow into a hopper tho, that could work really nicely. Imagine WallE scooping the snow into his box and compacting it, and pushing little snow bricks (how rude!) out his back end! The kids would love it too- instant fort-building material.

I'd make him be a box with barn-doors at the front. He starts with the doors open and pushes into the snow, then closes the doors to squish the snow into the box. Open the doors and repeat until the power required to close the doors hits some trigger level  indicating maximal compaction in the box. Open the back door and eject, open the front doors and repeat.

I'd make him about half the width of a sidewalk block, maybe 2' wide? And box height about 12-18", that should suffice for most of our worst storms.

Could we adapt an 'invisible fence' system for the boundary locations? Seems the dog shock collar should be hackable to make a detection system for the SnoBot.

(I'm gazing out the window at the stuff coming down as we speak- another 8-13" by tomorrow morning! Happy Vernal Equinox!)

Rovio rules!
Wisconsin Iron :: Cellular Atomics

March 21, 2008 10:20 AM

blabbermouth said: hey scotty, was that picture taken in upstate NY?

 I grew up in a NY snowbelt town. I now live in the neighboring Green Mountain State.

This particular winter there were only 3 or 4 storms of the depth shown in the picture. There was a lot of snow, but most of it came in snowfalls of under six inches at a time. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 21, 2008 10:26 AM

How about SnoBot power source? Since this guy will be in the garage in the winter, I don't think batteries will cut it. I like the hybrid power source used in the Parallax Propellor QuadRover because the hydraulics would work great for the snow doors and rams, but it is rather pricey. Any thoughts?

Rovio rules!
Wisconsin Iron :: Cellular Atomics

March 21, 2008 11:02 AM

Regarding the power source, I can see a couple of ways to go.

Given that it's garage based, it might be acceptable to just have it be powered by an extension cord. My idea of having it work back and forth from the top of the driveway to the bottom would be consistent with not having to cross over it's own cord as it progressed away from the garage. It would need to reel it back in as it finished up and went back to the garage.

Also given that it's a garage based utility bot, I would be okay with the use of wet cells. High capacity lead acid batteris like those used on motorcycles, boats, and cars. There's a huge amount of amp-hours in those.  The technology should be improving with the development of various electric and hybrid vehicles. The garage is unheated, but attached. It seldom drops far below freezing. An adaptation for a colder storage shed might be to have a line powered electric battery blanket that keeps the battery at some minimum temperature while stored on even the coldest days.

I'd find either of those alternatives better than a gasoline powered beastie. 

As for what the power is used for, there's another set of choices.

I have, but rarely use, a line powered electric Toro snow shovel. It's a high torque motor with an impeller at the end of a shovel handle. Pretty useless as is, as all it does is throw the snow it scoops about two feet in front of where it's pointed.  I've used it by pushing it at an angle through the snow, so that it throws the snow to the side.  Even then it's only good for clearing a narrow path. The build up of snow to the side quickly outpaces the ability of the shovel to toss it again during the next pass.

There are electric "blowers" that are one step above this entry level Toro shovel. They at least have a chute that can redirect the snow someplace other than straight forward. Perhaps one of those could be the heart of the hopper loader within the robot. 

If we decide to avoid a blower/loader, then some sort of scoop movement system would be needed. Hydraulics or electric lead screw could be used. Something on the order of an old garage door opener motor would work given enough leverage. That, or a car starter motor, if geared down.

The duty cycle on the scoop motion wouldn't be that bad. You'r reposition the scoop a couple of times every few minutes.

There  

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

View unverified member's comment - posted by J.T.

March 21, 2008 11:37 AM

As a follow up to the observation about cold environments, this does bring up a good point about the onboard electronics....namely that they won't work. Or at least they may have some trouble working at the -20F days they might be called to deal with. This picture shows a bit of an extreme, but is an actual daytime temperature in my backyard from a couple of winters ago.

The good news is that when it gets _that_ cold, it usually doesn't snow. Temperatures like that require cloudless nights with no wind. 

It might be necessary to have a board heater much like the Mars Rovers have so that the electronics can be kept within their normal operating range.

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 21, 2008 1:52 PM

According to my recollection of snow again, the hardest snow to shuvel came during slightly warmer times.   The extreme cold temperatures that you were refering to is very powdery snow and very easy to handle meaning that the bot would work less and in less time.  How bout just like a humaniod robot like Asimo.  Put a shovel in his hand and program him to throw snowballs at the neighbors kids periodically, and waa la, you have the perfect snobot!  If you go for other designs you are going to use gasoline.  Your robot is going to plow your driveway and than it will ride over your driveway with a series of heaters underneath it which will totall make your driveway snow free.  No battery is going to handle the snow on the bottom of the driveway.   But again the asimo like shoveling robot is geniuous.  He can shovel your driveway and clean off your car and with heaters on his hands and feet he can even defrost your windows before you get into the car.  Just change his name to snoimo or assimo.  Plus with the humanoid robot he can still lob snow balls at the neighbors kids!

March 21, 2008 3:46 PM

Liking the scoop and dump idea, milw. The following is just thinking out loud.

The second generation Toyota MR2 used an electric motor driven power steering pump. Something like that could be junkyard-ed and used to power a hydraulic system for door and smooshing rams. It's probably quite a current hog though and would eat through batteries pretty fast...

An onboard air compressor could be less power hungry than liquid hydraulics, and you wouldn't have the problem of needing to pre-heat your fluid reservoir to keep viscosity at a usable level (to avoid pump and seal blowouts). Pneumatic cylinders are readily available too, and a leak wouldn't create a nasty mess like oil would. You would end up with water in the air system though, which would end up becomming ice at some point while the robot is parked.

Both hydraulic and pneumatic systems should create plenty of heat to keep a warmer environment for the electronics. Possibly too warm depending on pump type and location. This should also prevent ice formation in a pneumatic system while it's running (position the valves and tank near the compressor).

Since one idea is having the bot be (at least semi) aware of it's position, setting it to return Home should be fairly easy. A small, semi-heated charging station could keep wet cell batteries charged and thawed. Something like an automatic doggy door closing it, with an RFID on the bot to open the door when it arrives (keep the neighborhood critters out of the dry toasty spot). In Idaho we had what looked like heated extension cords wrapped around the water pipes. Something like that might provide enough heat in a doghouse to keep SnoBot thawed (unless the fire department has banned them or something).

Fisher Price used to make a little kid r/c car with track system (maybe still do). My son had it when he was littler. There were two settings on the car, something like "easy" and "hard". "Hard" worked like an r/c car, with forward/reverse and left/right control. Easy mode though was really slick; only the forward button did anything (so 'go' or 'stop'), but the track thingus had a set of wires running through it (looked like a 6 conductor ribbon cable), and the car would stay ~4 inches from the rail and steer itself around the track (turning left only, if I recall). Can't remember what it's called, I'll try and dig it out of the closet and see if I can learn more (google's not helping much right now). The point is that it automatically turned to keep a certain distance from the rail. If those are still available, perhaps something like that could be used to make the invisible fence to keep the bot in the driveway.

edit = substituted 'dump' for a similarly inoffensive yet still censored word rhyming with 'scoop'

Watch out, don't step in the anthropomorphization.

March 21, 2008 4:31 PM

It's interesting that it's been stated that an electric, bipedal, shovel toting robot could handle the job, but no other electric mechanism could.

I'm sure an electric fill and dump mechanism could be designed to be much more stable and reliable than a bi-pedal robot wielding a shovel. The electric power could be used to power a compressor, hydraulic pump, or gearing for high torque, low speed operation of a scoop.

Yes, the humanoid robot, if it could be built strong enough, rugged enough, and sure of foot enough, could be more versatile and also rake my lawn, but ASIMO isn't ready for the job today.

One, high cost, approach would be to simply adapt an electric or propane powered forklift to provide the brute force power. A control system to get it to traverse a driveway from side to side would not be unsurmountable. Putting that in the garage would mean one of the cars stays out. That's not a good plan.

The Wall-E style block packer has some allure to it. I'd want it to deposit those blocks off to the side and not wherever it happened to be when it was full up. The goal is to leave the walkway and driveway ready for traffic, not to leave it an obstacle course.

I have no delusions that a single solution is best for the one inch dusting as well as the three foot heavy wet dump. Or that the packed and frozen berm left by the snowplow at the curb would be as simple to deal with as the unpacked powder further up the driveway. 

The style of a downsized front end loader, able to either push light snow to the side, or load a hopper with heavier snow, seems like it might be adaptable to various snow conditions. 

ScottE -- Member (always) & Moderator (when needed)

March 21, 2008 7:00 PM

Actually i said it could but would need the power of gasoline.  The humaniod bot was a joke.  Think about it!   It is much more fun to lob snowballs at people yourself.  Besides I did say something that ran on gasoline and could sense your driveway pavement as opposed to grass would be perfect.  It would first plow to the side than ride over the driveway with a heater/dryer so thier will be no snow or ice.  The heater will be on the botom of the robot.  When I lived in snow my parents bedroom was right above the garage so i could potentially run a bot via remote control like a remote control car.  Some people do consider robots with remote controls to be robots, but really technically if it uses a remote control or at least requires a remote control it is not a robot.  So you need a sensor that reads your driveway and not the road or the lawn.  It should have one hand so when the robot was done with the driveway and a snow plow came by and dumped another bunch of snow on the bottom of the driveway the bot can give it the finger.

March 21, 2008 7:01 PM

But Scott i was kidding about the humaniod bot.  Alot of people find it hard to believe, but I can be sarcastic sometimes.  Obviously i'm usually quiet and shy.

March 21, 2008 8:35 PM

blabbermouth said: But Scott i was kidding about the humaniod bot.  Alot of people find it hard to believe, but I can be sarcastic sometimes.  Obviously i'm usually quiet and shy.

It can be hard to tell when people are joking or kidding from just the typing. That's why the intarweb invented those little faces, the wink one is particularly useful in such cases.

-the Other Scott 

Rovio rules!
Wisconsin Iron :: Cellular Atomics

Discussion:    Add a Comment | Back to Top | Comments 1-21 of 21 | Latest Comment

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